otago massacre


Political Correctness by rogueview
April 28, 2009, 6:00 pm
Filed under: nonsensical | Tags: ,

posted by rogueview

Now I know it’s not an original topic because everyone knows its crap but hey. I was watching the news a few weeks ago, you know the horrible practically scripted set of repetitive crap that shows just how Bilingual our society is by opening with “Ki Ora and good evening” and the rest of the show is in English unless the story specifically corresponds to Maori landmarks and such. Anyway I heard our minister for Maori affairs Dr Pita Sharples claiming that the fact that the Supercity the government wants to make Auckland into will not include Maori seats is an example of “institutionalized racism” was anyone else shaking their heads with disbelief at this point? Literally the only thing that those seats do is force NEW ZEALANDERS who are not maori to have them.

Now last I checked the other seats in the council would be available to anyone, of any ethnicity as elected by the public to represent the public. This is the Democratic system and we know it has flaws but still. The only thing racist about those seats is having them, but apparently to Dr Pita Sharples racism cannot apply to any other race other than Maori. He also had this as his reasoning for having the seats. “we have not been able to have a Maori on a council, they have not been elected.” The clue is in the wording mate, elected, by the people you are representing. If the population wants a Maori candidate wouldn’t they elect them? Having seats for a racial group is discriminatory to all other racial groups. Just for the record let it be known that I do actually respect Pita Sharples on most things, he is a clever man and very nearly got my vote at the elections and I think his presence in government could do good things for our nation.

Another thing that really gets me is that on all of our forms in New Zealand they all seem to say “NZ Pakeha”. Now I get the whole pakeha thing is the name that the Indigenous Maori people of New Zealand gave to the original European colonists. But the problem with that is, I am not a European colonist, I am a New Zealander and I am damn proud of it. On those forms I refuse to tick NZ Pakeha because I am not. I am a New Zealander irrespective of what race my parents were or their parents and so forth so in the slot for OTHER I write in New Zealander. To then have the news (aforementioned rubbish that we must occasionally endure (why – ophalm?)) proclaiming that “Maori would like to be called New Zealanders” I thought that’s great, we can be a nation of one race but no they also wanted to be getting the other special privileges such as the university grants and the tribal payouts etc. That’s not equality. I just cant understand why people put up with it. Not that i am not sympathetic to the Maori rational as they were somewhat ripped off by the British colonizers with their land taken, I do believe that they should receive some compensation of sorts but at the same time, money that I as a taxpayer am paying to the government should not be being used to pay for an old dispute. Maori people were ostracised and outcast for a few generations and the language all but destroyed, there is nothing we can do to repair that, money sure doesn’t do it. We are however rebuilding that language, a friend of mine in Teachers College is having to learn Maori in order to be a Teacher, thats more of a step than payouts ever will be.

As a final comment towards the racial issues of political correctness, has anyone noticed those new Maori entities? The “Maori” drivers license, the “Maori” police and as one of my flatmates saw at the warehouse the other day, “Maori” girl guides. Good grief is there no point where people just think, wait a minute this is a bit over the top. The new decision by the New Zealand Geographical board to rename Wanganui Whanganui was ridiculous. Yes it was its name to Maori people but its been called Wanganui for the past 150 years why should it change now. Even our dear Otago is derived from the colonists mishearing Otakou. Are we going to have to change that too? And then what about Christchurch? Because that cannot be its traditional Maori name? The only logical reasonIi can think of for changing Wanganui is that it is a Maori name that is spelt incorrectly, so what. A name is a name, the worst thing is its purely appearance! It’s a silent freaking H. As you can tell I am very frustrated with the politically correct views that keep people from commenting on this kind of thing. Just because an issue is a racial thing doesn’t mean that we should just hush up and say nothing. That’s insane!

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37 Comments so far
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DAMN SON
HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OF “WHITE PRIVILEGE”?

I DON’T THINK YOU REALLY UNDERSTAND THE SITUATION?

NZ HAS CHRONIC (420 EVERY DAY) INSTITUTIONALISED RACISM. TAKE YOUR VOTING ISSUE – IMAGINE IF THE VOTE WAS GIVEN IN NAZI GERMANY, IF NO-ONE WAS FORCED TO HAVE JEWS ON SEATS NO-ONE WOULD VOTE FOR THEM. THAT’S AN EXTREME ANALOGY BUT DON’T YOU SEE THAT (BASICALLY) IF THERE ARE NO FORCED MAORI SEATS AND NO-ONE VOTES FOR MAORI REPRESENTATIVES IT’S QUITE POSSIBLY BECAUSE THE AMOUNT OF RACISM THAT IS INHERENT IN THIS COUNTRY? MAYBE WE SHOULD HAVE VOTE TO SEE IF ALL MAORI SHOULD BE SHOT, AND IF MORE THAN 50% WANT IT WE WILL DO IT I MEAN THAT FOLLOWS YOUR UNDERSTANDING?

SERIOUSLY, FOR ANYONE INFORMED ON RACE ISSUES THIS POST COMES ACROSS AS IGNORANT AND RACIST. I MIGHT BE SEXIST BUT BITCHES LOOK GOOD SO THAT MAKES IT OK. IGNORANCE ISN’T COOL AND THIS ATTITUDE YOU’VE GOT IS FURTHERING THE CONDEMNATION OF MINORITIES TO POVERTY

Comment by dangercore

haha that’s quite the intense reply..
dangercore does have a point though. I used to think like that when I was younger. I have come to realise that due to the white privilege I have as dc mentioned, that it’s near on impossible to see just how underprivileged minorities are, and I understand why we get bitter when we see this “reverse racism”, but I don’t think the majority of the population has ever been educated enough to understand the situation.
the simple fact is that maori are worse off in every way (statistically I mean). you cannot blame that on their genetics and if you try to blame it on their culture, well the fact is that their culture has for the large part been wiped out and yeah it’s coming back. it’s shown that those who can feel like they are part of their own culture do a lot better, and for a long time that hasn’t been available to maori.

new zealand is on the fore front of colonised countries attempting to reverse the damage done to the indigenous “races”, yet when it happens people complain like this.

privileged people who think they aren’t racist are probably the worst of all since they do nothing to help solve the obvious blatant problems and in some cases oppose the attempts at change

Comment by ophalm

This is such a white, middle class rant. Sometimes what is right isn’t what is popular with the majority. The “majority” in NZ like Dancing with the Stars, is that “right”?

Comment by Feltch

“In order to get beyond racism, we must first take account of race. There is no other way. And in order to treat some persons equally, we must treat them differently.”
Harry A. Blackmun (American Supreme Court justice, 1908-1999)

[Ha ha! Now I look smart but all I did was do a google search for ‘Racism Quotes’]

Anyway LW we know you’re not racist. I often get frustrated with positive discrimination type stuff but then I talk to my flatmate who slams 5 years of political studies (specializing in indigenous minorities) in my whitey face.

Comment by strangelyanonymous

I’d like to add just as an fyi this wasn’t a post by Lois Weathers but sponsored by her, that is to say that she didn’t write it, but allowed it to be posted under her name..

Comment by ophalm

Ahem, as a New Zealander of Maori descent, I resent people constantly telling me I have suffered descrimination my whole life and I need “extra” help in all areas of my life from education to well.. gaining a political seat. Apparantly Im unable(?) to gain these myself, or all the pakeha people I’ve grown up with or lived with will be unable to vote for me as they suddenly notice my brown face. DANGIT, just allow me to be a kiwi, just like you.

Comment by Claudi

As a serious question, when you see statistics that say that the average life expectancy of Maori compared to the rest of the country is 7 years lower, do you think that nothing needs to be done about it?

Comment by ophalm

NOW THATS WHAT I CALL REVERSE RACISM

Comment by dangercore

“As a serious question, when you see statistics that say that the average life expectancy of Maori compared to the rest of the country is 7 years lower, do you think that nothing needs to be done about it?”

hummmm my Nanny is 81 with plenty of life in the old girl yet, however her brother died 23 years ago after smoking since he was 11… should something be done to lower smoking rates among Maori? DEFINATELY! but at the same time, it should apply across ALL races with smokers. Should something be done to encourage Maori to eat food that encourages health? DEFINATELY! but not over and above all other citizens that also suffer health problems. We are too small a nation to divide up for any reason, segment the nation on health issues, not race.

Comment by Claudi

it’s pretty straightforward that poverty leads to earlier death, less health (everything bad really), and that Maori disproportionally make up the population in poverty.

This is a problem, and while I understand your desire to just help those that need it based on need (which needs to happen as well), there is a reason why Maori predominately are worse off. It’s an issue that needs to be specifically addressed.

I really understand your point, but what you advocate is what has been happening in this country for a long time and it has led us to this place with the large discrepancies between european and Maori descent people.

Comment by ophalm

could it be possible that we are worse off because people keep telling us we are worse off?

Can you possibly understand just how offensive it is to be referred to as an “underpriveliged minority”?

And you say “the simple fact is that maori are worse off in every way (statistically I mean).” Which completely ignores the fantastic progress Maori have made in many areas such as agricultural busines where they lead the way, just one example.

The worst racists are ones that dont even know they are racist, but still look upon another people as somehow so inferior as to need their constant imput and help or they will fail. If we ourselves recognize an issue, we are quite capable of working on solutions and dont need condescending, pitying attitudes that lack respect and relegate us a people to the status of children.

Comment by Claudi

Ahh as instigator of this mayhem i love seeing it unfold, this is exactly why i wrote it! If i thought i knew everything why in the hell would i bother telling anyone? Its a means to increase my perception of the reality that is New Zealand Society. I agree with the perspective given by Claudi and i laugh at Dangercore/Ophalm(earlier comments) as they immediately prove why these issues exist. I believe people are people, their history is history let them make their own way

Comment by Ill_Informed_Writer

@claudi. generally, do you believe you speak for yourself or all maori?
sorry for over generalising about the statistical discrepancies too. I was talking more about health and wealth in general.. and I agree with your comment about the worst racists are those that ignore racism altogether.

but for the failure of my generalisation, for most statistics it’s correct. maori have far worse health, die earlier and are poorer. do you consider this a problem? because this discrepancy arose from years of being sidelined in a nation that generally refused to acknowledge the culture as a distinct and worthy one. if it wasn’t for efforts to change this, the discrepancy would be even bigger than it is today.
do you not consider the discrepancy an issue?
I’m really not trying to offend you. I am using statistical generalisations and saying that without a form of “reverse racism”, that nothing would get done and maori wouldn’t have as many opportunities due to a lot of institutionalised racism in the country. is it a good thing maori have a tv channel of their own that allows their culture a voice that is broadcast across the country? would this have happened if special funds weren’t directed to it? it’s unlikely. but it is beneficial

@ill informed
I just think you’re ill informed. does claudi speak for all maori? she certainly doesn’t speak for the maori lecturers that come and teach me race related statistical issues in regards to the health system and urge us budding health professionals to understand these discrepancies and to respect the maori culture.

Comment by ophalm

in the health science I am studying, in the code of ethics there are a few articles that address maori health specifically, basically stating that maori culture needs to be respected and addressed. if I understand right, what claudi and illinformed are promoting is none of these kinds of things should exist because they claim everyone should be treated the same.

who fought to put these laws in?
why are they in there?
what happens when they’re not?

Comment by ophalm

That is exactly what i am promoting as is that not the purpose of the universal declaration of human rights. That everyone is entitled to equal rights regardless of factors such as race, age, gender or appearance. Sure there are flaws in this system too because no system is perfect. Yes there is no doubt legislation that says that are in respect to Maori health in particular but that is not to say that the people who fought to put these laws in place were perfect, they are the solutions that these people who were the lawmakers at the time put into place to resolve an issue they saw needed addressing. In no way am i suggesting that these laws are wrong and that i could do better, simply wishing to voice my opinion that sometimes they can seem unusual to someone who they exclude.

Comment by Ill_Informed_Writer

I understand what you’re saying, but what I am getting at is that – while everyone does have the same right – not everyone has the same opportunities, and it’s known that (for whatever reason) people from certain cultures have less opportunities or are not able to take the same advantage of the opportunities, and the laws and things I support are to equalise the cultures, not raise one above the other

ultimately, I understand your issue of special treatment, and you see that is a problem.
the problem I see is large disparities of health and wealth and think that something needs to be done specifically.

in the end it seems you think everyone should be treated the same. the problem with that is, is that while we’re all homo sapien, we don’t all identify with the same culture. and what (I believe) you’re essentially trying to do is to force everyone to operate in your culture, and if they can’t handle it then tough luck. but do you realise that we forced this culture on maori? so maybe for their culture to operate in our culture as well as we do they need specific routes.

as an example, statistically, maori respond better to maori doctors and teachers. it improves health and education. because of this there are programs encouraging (and making it easier for) more maori to get into teaching and medicine. you still might think that is unfair, but it’s not about who get’s what specifically, it’s not about some european kid not getting into med school even though he had better marks than a maori kid, because that’s focusing on the individual, but it’s about outcomes, because the maori going into medicine is a greater overall benefit to our entire society at large.

Comment by ophalm

“@claudi. generally, do you believe you speak for yourself or all maori?”

Hell no! and why would you even ask that? Everytime you speak/write do you get asked if you speak for all pakeha, or all women? No? Well neither does the

” the maori lecturers that come and teach me race related statistical issues in regards to the health system and urge us budding health professionals to understand these discrepancies and to respect the maori culture.”

speak for all Maori either. And this is exactly the problem that occurs when you start to segregate by race, you generalize, you stereotype… you are racist.

Dress it up all you like “some Maori dont do well, all Maori dont do well and need extra help” smells a lot like “A Maori stole my car, all Maori steal cars.

And as for the “is it a good thing maori have a tv channel of their own that allows their culture a voice that is broadcast across the country? would this have happened if special funds weren’t directed to it?”

I disagree, public funds should never have been used for this purpose, we did this to ourselves, our elders went to the govt in the 1920’s and requested that Maori children not be allowed to speak Maori in schools. They did this so Maori children would learn English and have more chance of succeeding. This language “renaissance” has resulted in most Maori children who attend Te Reo immersion schools not being able to speak English well enough to pass NCEA level 1 English. How has this helped our children, especially in a global environment where proficiency in English is essential? Why do Asian kids speak better English than Maori kids? This policy has ensured a generation of “underpriviledge”… good work :S

Comment by Claudi

I don’t think we’re going to agree on anything claudi.

my question about speaking for everyone or for yourself.. what I meant was, was your opinion representative of maori in general or not?

about segregating by race.. well I don’t want any segregation, and especially not by race. I am talking about culture. I am talking about freeing a culture to practice their culture without the confines of having to bow down to “our” culture

you say english is required for a global environment. we obviously have different goals here, because it seems your goal is to assimilate maori culture more and more into western culture, so it can thrive in western culture. why is that a good thing? why is it bad if they maintain their own separate culture? what makes western culture so good and special?

Comment by ophalm

“what I meant was, was your opinion representative of maori in general or not?”

Ok, ill try and explain this again. ‘Maori’ are individuals, not some strange hybrid hive with a collective mentality that allows us all to share the same thought. Just like any race, we all think for ourselves… there is no such thing as “representive of Maori or not”

“it seems your goal is to assimilate maori culture more and more into western culture, so it can thrive in western culture.”

not western culture, global culture. why is this not a good thing? why shouldnt Maori own businesses, employ people, travel? It seems you want to keep us on the Pa, maybe bring us out to perform every now and again for visiting popstars? Maybe come observe how we cook in the ground and weave our cute little cloaks? Aww bless. Do you also advocate arranged marriage for 13 year old pakeha girls? that was the culture in medieval england.

“why is it bad if they maintain their own separate culture?”

Ermmm we are free to practice our culture, we are also free to live in the 21st century as mature adults, capable of anything you are.

Comment by Claudi

I’m not saying assimilating into global culture is necessarily good or bad, I’m saying they should have the option. not forcing them to join global culture

and I don’t believe any of those things you say. I say these things to they can be free to be part of their own culture and not be bogged down by ours if they choose

“we are free to practice our culture”
this freedom needed to be worked towards and is still being worked towards. that’s the point

Comment by ophalm

“their own culture” vs “ours” theres some really nice “togetherness”

Silly me, just a stupid Maori thinking she knows whats best for herself, Dang we do tend to get uppity ideas like that sometimes. I know, I know, I should just accept the fact Im too incapable/backward/underpriviliged to get by in life without your help and your special blend of “cultural understanding”, without you ensuring people “understand” my cultural background. Thank you for educating me about how down and out repressed I am, and a mighty big thank you for educating me about my cultural issues. I will get down on my knees tonight and praise Maui for the great and awesome knowledgeable Pakeha girl that educates us boongas.

Comment by Claudi

this isn’t and has never been about individuals
I have no idea what’s best for you and never claimed I did. I only ever talk about statistics and what they say.
all I am trying to say is that maori have the right to their own culture (if they wish) and don’t have to conform to another culture that was placed upon them if they don’t want.

there is a health disparity. I have mentioned this. it’s an old disparity, but due to efforts to reduce this disparity the gap has been narrowing.
if I understand you correctly, you’d be against the measures that have led to this change?

Comment by ophalm

If thats what you understand, then you understand nothing. Actually this IS about individuals, there is no collective without individuals. You apparantly seem to view Maori as a mass group, this is not the case. People are people are people, untill you can understand that you will judge individuals based on whichever “group” you judge then to belong to. You will then stereotype pre-judgements upon them. To me, this does not make a great start for a “Health worker”

Comment by Claudi

I think you’re misunderstanding me.
I will always treat individuals as individuals with different needs. I will never judge a person based upon a stereotype. I will use my understandings of different culture to inform me of different ways of understandings and approaches but this is not a judgement, this is simply learning to respect and identify culture (as a simple example, learning to pronounce maori spelt names. if we didn’t have particular lessons on this, how would we do it?)

But what I am talking about here is a different topic. I’m talking about a group of people who statistically have a large disparity, and evidence shows that specific approaches to lessen this disparity work.

for example, why is it that maori is extremely overrepresented in the prison system? is it because they are more violent and more likely to steal? I certainly don’t believe so. it’s been shown that when people have a stronger sense of identity – in this case, when maori are freer to practice their culture – less offending happens.
so this is why funds are allocated and directed towards strengthening the culture and allowing more freedom within the culture and to practice the culture.

from a human development point of view, self identity is a very important issue, the primary issue in fact. yes we need to treat eveyone individually, but also allow anyone to identify with their culture as much as they want. if that means immersion in maori language schools where they can’t speak english, well what’s the problem? people should be free to live how they want.

although in this instance I’m talking about maori culture and “common” culture (whatever that is), I’m not trying to state these are the only two; there are many people in this country from many different cultures and I believe they all deserve attention.

and you don’t seem to be addressing the real issues I’m bringing up, just attacking the way I state my understanding of the issues. do you not see a problem with the massive disparities? what’s your solution?

Comment by ophalm

So, you say you will

“treat individuals as individuals with different needs. I will use my understandings of different culture”

But apparantly your “understanding” of Maori culture is, (in your words)”maori is extremely overrepresented in the prison system, maori have far worse health, die earlier and are poorer, the simple fact is that maori are worse off in every way”

In your own words! this is how you will approach Maori patients OH EM GEE!! How can you not think that these stereotypes you are carrying around will effect the way you treat these people, hell, even I’m scared of Maori now after reading that! *hides from Dad*

Anyhoo, this discussion was about the division of resources/political seats/health care resources etc based on race. My argument is that resources should never be allocated based on race, but should be allocated on need. If some Maori have a need, go hard, knock yourself out- but not at the expense of other races.

For example, a race-based policy of extra funding in any area of health for Maori. I would be entitled to rock up and grab my share, but I have no need, my parents have private health insurance. So, what about the Pakeha/Chinese/Indian/etc New Zealander that misses out because I was entitled based on race rather than need?

Comment by Anonymous

PS: that was me XD woops cleared browser

Comment by Claudi

I understand why you have issue with what I’m saying, but think about this.
If a person from a japanese culture bowed to you, if you weren’t aware of their culture and weren’t prepared to consider they culture when you talked to them, and consequently didn’t bow, that could be considered rude. So how is it bad in that situation, to know & understand their culture, and have that in the back of my mind while serving a japenese person.
Why do you think is about stereotypes? I am saying that statistics say one thing, but I say that these statistics show that there is a problem with the way different cultures are treated, NOT because I think the cultures are actually more violent etc.

“So, what about the Pakeha/Chinese/Indian/etc New Zealander that misses out because I was entitled based on race rather than need?”
but more often than not they’re not missing out because they’re already healthier/whatever. Sure these are generalisations based on statistics

“If some Maori have a need, go hard, knock yourself out- but not at the expense of other races.”
who says it is at the expense? What you seem to not understand from my perspective of opinion is that treating all cultures as if they were one so far has created disparity!

It seems that it helps maori (for example) to have separate maori doctors for them to go to. They feel more comfortable, are more honest about their problems and get better help. Do you understand that point and agree or disagree? And in order for their to be enough maori doctors to achieve this, there needs to be extra provision to encourage and help more maori become doctors. Do you agree or disagree?
That is the kind of thing I am talking about. The only reason I will treat someone different is to respect them more and to help them more, to overcome the health disparity.

“ut apparantly your “understanding” of Maori culture is, (in your words)”maori is extremely overrepresented in the prison system, maori have far worse health, die earlier and are poorer, the simple fact is that maori are worse off in every way””
You are simply twisting my words. That is not my understanding of maori culture at all, that describes nothing about their culture and is simply stating statistics. And studies tend to show that by respecting culture these differences in statistics can be lessened. You seem to disbelieve that, but tell me then why the statistics are so out? If anything your argument more than mine attempts to state that these statistics are the way they are because “that’s just how maori are”, because you believe everyone should be treated the same, and for the large part they are and have been for a long time, and out of that those approaches those statistics have risen.
I believe those statistics are they way they are because of institutionalised racism and not respecting culture differences.

What is your solution to the disparity?

Also please try to answer my questions, and don’t just attacking me or my understanding, ad hominems are a terribly poor form of argument

Comment by ophalm

I am reading what you write with disbelief, you have to be the most racist person-in-denial ever. Your whole opinions are based on generalizations that really have no place in a thinking community. Whilst initially amused, I have honestly moved into the slightly alarmed category.

My favourite so far has to be:

“but more often than not they’re not missing out because they’re already healthier/whatever.”

Tough cheese for the Indians/Chinese who arent wealthy/healthy huh? You’ve decided their “people” are rich enough. (Can I get a ‘Achtung Juden!’ Hell yeah!)

Now, I made a statement that everyone should be helped, regardless of race, based on need. Your answer to this was “Who says it is at the expense (sic) of other races” Well, as a matter of fact.. I do. When you introduce policies that only benefit one race, the money came from somewhere didnt it? Funding has been taken from something else..maybe the breast cancer drug no longer funded perhaps. Every action has a consequence.

I also beg to differ in your opinion that I have somehow “twisted” your words; Untrue, quoting what you have said is not ‘twisting’.

It is also a very different thing to have in the “back of your mind” when dealing with a Japanese person that bowing is good manners, and dealing with a Maori and thinking they are mostly in prison, unhealthy, poor, and gonna die soon. A more fitting analogy to your current views on Maori would be thinking every Japanese person is about to commit Hari Kari and watches Hentai all day.

Im also uncomfortable with your constant referral to “statistics”. Any first year student of statistics can tell you that on there own, without context, “statistics” can tell you anything you want them to.

If we are going to be pedantic about the rules of debating, you should be aware that is is very bad form to refer to any kind of “statistics” to further an argument without proof of validity and sources.

Now my solution to the “disparity” you see hiding behind every nook and cranny. Firstly, explain “disparity”. Disparity with whom? Pakeha? Pacific Islanders? Oh no wait… Pacific Islanders oftenly have worse health “statistics” than Maori, so dang what do we do with that little nugget? Maybe “disparity” in concern to racist attacks? Oh no wait, Muslims reported the most racist attacks in 2007 followed by Asians. I could go on, but I feel this might be going right over your head.

Comment by Claudi

I really don’t think you understand the situation.

here is a link to some statistics
Māori life expectancy at birth was more than eight years less than non-Māori in 2001, for both genders.
Māori have a higher rate of disability than non-Māori. The most common disability type experienced by Māori children was chronic conditions/health problems.
Māori had higher mortality rates than non-Māori in cardiovascular disease, stroke, heart failure, rhuematic heart disease, heart disease, ischaemic heart disease.
Māori prevalence of diabetes is two and half times higher than non-Māori.
Māori had higher suicide mortality rates than non-Māori, and males of both ethnicities had significantly higher suicide mortality rates then their female counterparts.
The disaprity rate for interpersonal violence was highest in Māori females with an assault and homicide hospitalisation rate more than five times higher than that of non-Māori females.
Māori children had a higher number of filled or missing teeth regardless of a fluoridated and non fluoridated water supply.
Sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS) mortality rates were five times higher among Māori infants than among non-Māori infants.
Māori children had a higher failure rate on school entry hearing tests than non-Māori.
Almost 50% of sentenced male prisoners are Māori.

those are just some of the obvious statements on that site. The data is in there

And yes we can use those statistics to say “maori are more violent and less healthy”, but I am not saying that. I am saying that there is a societal problem and it needs to be addressed. Giving help to “those that need it” does not work, because we already have that and look at the massive disparity. Cultures need to be addressed specifically in particular ways. Not just maori, but that is what this conversation is about
(also muslim isn’t a race, how can you be racist against a religion? I understand what you meant though)

Please, instead of attacking me, answer why it is that you think there is a disparity there.

Also, you do twist my words. Quoting me and then saying I think that when I see maori is your assertion and not what I do at all. I was talking in that instance about having their culture in mind, in order to respect it

Comment by ophalm

First, I will address the off-topic rant. It cannot be “twisting” your words to quote you, these are the words you used, no twisting needed. If you dont mean them/that way dont write them, simple really.

Second: If ya wanna talk twisting words “your goal is to assimilate maori culture more and more into western culture” “because you believe everyone should be treated the same
ummm…

Now there seems to be some discrepency in what you are saying. I said it is a bad thing when Maori children in immersions schools cannot speak or write coherent english. I say it is a bad thing because their chances of well paid employment are lessened and they have been doomed to a life of poverty through this “affirmative action” therefore perpetuating your well loved “statistics”.

Your well thought out answer is:
if that means immersion in maori language schools where they can’t speak english, well what’s the problem? people should be free to live how they want.

Ohhh I see, people should be free to live how they want… So you agree, no interference. Leave people to live how they want to live.

And now your “statistics” oftenly said to be dangerous things in the wrong hands and I see the logic to that saying now.

and I quote:
And yes we can use those statistics to say “maori are more violent and less healthy”,

Well actually you cant. As I tried to explain to you earlier, “statistics” need to be taken in context with many other variables. Now the link you have posted gives some very colourful figures based in two categories: Maori vs Non-Maori. There is no inter-category comparison and the same “statistics” would emerge if you used the categories of Pacific-Islander vs Non-Pacific Islander.

There is also an issue with sample size. There are proportionally more Non-Maori in New Zealand. In terms that you can understand, Say you take a sample of two Maori people and one has cancer, you then sample two white people and neither has cancer, do you then state your “statistic” as 50% of Maori have cancer and 0% of Pakeha do? Of course not, Why not? because the proportion of Maori in the population is lower than the proportion of all other races together, ie: (Non-Maori)

In proportion to Pakeha, the Maori demographic has more women of prime childbearing years, resulting in a higher proportion of live births. Holy toledo batman, does that now mean Maori are healthier than Pakeha?

and seriously: “also muslim isn’t a race, how can you be racist against a religion? I understand what you meant though”

*sigh* no, islam isnt a race, and neither is sikhs, but both of these are reported as racist attacks by government departments. not my call but you can always contact the race relations office and express your concern at the term racist attack being used to describe attacks on people due to their religion. knock yourself out.

You cry for answers to your “questions” but you keep changing the question. You want an answer for your “massive disparity”? Allocate resources based on need, not race. Simple and solved. But then you will go off on a tangent about respecting different cultures, dang. Just because resources are allocated on need rather than race does not instantly translate to ‘and I also spit on all cultures’

Now you claim ” Giving help to “those that need it” does not work, because we already have that and look at the massive disparity”

I beg to differ, if help had been given to those that need it, by very definition there would be no “massive dispartiy” The only logical conclusion that does not make an illogical tautology, is that help hasnt been given to those that need it.

But I state again, the help should be given based on need, not race.

Comment by Claudi

You seem to believe that if help is offered to all people equally, that all people will accept the help equally and benefit from the help equally (and this alone is enough)

Am I right in believing that?

Comment by ophalm

http://www.understandingprejudice.org/readroom/articles/affirm.htm

it’s not new zealand but it provides references to the benefits and successes of affirmative action in the US

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T1B-4K66KWN-19&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=26088731094eaff71146fc24d27ecade

not entirely sure if that link will work but the conclusion was “Racism, both interpersonal and institutional, contributes to Māori health losses and leads to inequalities in health between Māori and Europeans in New Zealand. Interventions and policies to improve Māori health and address these inequalities should take into account the health effects of racism.” with sample sizes of 4000 maori and 6000 non maori

from this article in the bmj “Maori make up around 14% of the total population but only 5% of the national health workforce.7 On equity grounds, indigenous participation in the professional health workforce should match community demographic profiles and may challenge health educators to review admission criteria and the content of curriculums.”

the studies pretty much say that you need to go out of your way (above and beyond “give everyone the same”) to be able to give everyone equal help.

see I don’t disagree that everyone should get the same access and amount of care. what I have been shown through my studies of the topic and the research is that you need to go out of your way to achieve this. for maori to have equal health (for example) they need to be equally represented as health practitioners as a proportion as they are in the general population. this doesn’t just happen by itself

Comment by ophalm

This post has gone on a ridiculous tangent, although proving my ultimate point. The idea was not the racial inequity in society but rather the fact that we, as a people are too concerned about being politically correct to speak about our evident discontent. For example, with only three main persons in this post there are three strongly varying viewpoints which, in the public view would be construed as politically incorrect (although Ophalm you actually sound like your much loathed news the way you quote statistics)

Comment by rogueview

if only the news actually used statistics and an evidence based approach!

Comment by ophalm

holy fucking shit

Comment by raincoat-h8r

No if only the news used relevant statistics is the key point.

Comment by rogueview

are you trying to say my statistics aren’t relevant… 😉

Comment by ophalm




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